posted 12-15-2002 03:39 PM            

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trapper99

posted 12-16-2002 08:37 AM            

More examiners should use this forum and frank open discussion always helps. you mentioned tha NAS report, what do you think?

Jack

posted 12-16-2002 09:12 PM            

I agree that there is much more discussion needed on the NAS report. However, meaningful discussion has been contributed by but a handful of participants on this board. I have encouraged others to join the discussions but have not seen their participation as of yet.

posted 12-20-2002 08:28 AM            

I disagree and believe that new technology will be coming that will improve the Polygraph. I do think that it may be so different from what we have now that it will not be recognizable to the lay person. We in the profession will be able to adapt and continue because our job has always been and always will be to find the truth. That will never change but the way we go about doing it very well may.

Jack

posted 12-20-2002 08:30 AM            

Jack L.Ogilvie and family

posted 01-09-2003 09:27 PM            

I just wanted to say that as a member I haven't been able to keep up with the recent postings as much as other examiners. Having said that though, I am a sometimes a good Lurker...Probably the holidays and such threw a damper on our free time.

The postings here on the examiner board are very interesting and the regulars do a great job replying to the subject matter, often completely deadening the subject before it has an opportunity to run its course.

We have a quarterly Wisconsin Polygraph Association meeting this week and I again will make it a point to provide members with the web site address as they can take advantage of the wonderful networking ops afforded.

I also often bring to our association current polygraph event articles such as the recent web link provided on the Popular Science Article.

I would appreciate more that members have read recently prior to the meeting on the 17th of Jan.

I would also encourage other members to pass the word about the polygraph place examiner forum to their respective associations. I know that there are a lot more examiners out there within the states that our posters hail from.

To anyone interested I had an unusual poly case involving a forcible sexual assault allegation and I examined the suspect and alleged victim...results were that they were both deceptive. Anyone else have anything like that.....

posted 01-10-2003 07:49 AM            

I think we can all benefit by discussing cases we had that caused us some concern. I know that with the experience of the people reading this site we should be able to come up with answers to most questions. Notice I didn't say agree, we won't always but we should be able to come up with solutions that most of us could live with so lets hear it.

Jack

posted 01-10-2003 04:15 PM            

Alleged Victim,17 yr old female babysitting at her sister’s home. Children present but asleep, one hers, two her sisters all under 2 YOA. During the evening two males one a friend of the alleged victim stop by at about 1:00 A.M. The alleged suspect states he stayed in the car and the other goes inside to retrieve a jacket that had been left there earlier. At about 2:30A.M. Both males again stop by and both go inside. After about five minutes the suspect male states he goes outside to wait in the car and have a cigarette. The other male then comes out to the car and they both leave. During the course of the night the males had been out at local bars drinking. The male friend of the female tells the other that the girl is pretty easy and has been sexually active with many other guys.

Suspect male states:

At about 5:00 A.M. the 22 year old suspect male drives alone to the apartment and according to him he knocks on the apartment door and is let in. Once inside they engage in conversation and have consensual sexual intercourse in one of the empty bedrooms. After the sexual act they both go to the kitchen table, talk and smoke cigarettes during the conversation they talked about their kids and she discloses that she is only 17 years old. (a misdemeanor, sexual intercourse with a person under the age of eighteen). The alleged suspect then leaves the apartment and drives home 70 miles as he had only been visiting his friend and had to work that day. As he leaves he notes that another car had pulled into the parking lot.

Alleged Victim states:

While babysitting for her sister friend stops by as well as the alleged suspect at about 1:00 A.M. they talk for a while then the two males leave, they again return at about 2:30 A.M. and left. At about 5:00 A.M. the victim states she awoke someone standing over her with his hand on her throat while sleeping on a living room sofa. (alleged victim states door was unlocked) whom she later recognized as the suspect. She states that the suspect tells her that if she says anything or struggles he will kill her.

She stated that she was directed to a rear-unoccupied bedroom where the suspect directed her to drop her pants and underwear and bend forward while standing as he proceeds to have sexual intercourse with her. Once completed she states that the suspect threatens her that if she told anyone that he would snap her neck and dump her where no one would find her. He then directs her to remove her underpants that he took and then directs her to the bathroom where he tells her to douche. In the kitchen area she stated that he told her that he should just kill her now and get it over with. She states he also talks about that if anyone finds out about what had happened he would loose his kid. He asked the victim when her sister would be home and she told him she was expected at anytime.

About fifteen minutes later the local police department received a call from the alleged victims sister stating that the sister was raped.

Officers arrive and process the scene removing several douche bottles from the bathroom garbage can. They also complete and collect a completed sexual assault kit.

Alleged Suspects friend is made aware of the investigation and notifies the alleged suspect.

The alleged suspect drives to the police station 70 miles away and presents himself to law enforcement for questioning. Denies any forcible acts, readily admits to sexual contact including knowledge that the girl was under age. States that he was only in the kitchen and a rear bedroom where the sex act occurred.

Alleged Suspect is on parole for cabin burglaries (had been in prison for offence) and has no history of any other crimes. Suspect is separated from his wife and has been for the last six months. They both have joint custody of their one-year-old daughter. Alleged suspect taken into custody (parole rule violation, consumption of alcohol, investigation). Alleged suspect after being informed of Miranda at least during two separate interviews by police while in custody continues to profess innocence of forcible rape willing to take a polygraph and continue with any interviews.

Question

Reviewing the case facts and summary of story (you already know my polygraph exam result outcome) what type of exam would you recommend?

What relative questions would you use?

If we can let this run a little bit on the forum I think it would provide us with some good conversation. I’ll then let you know what happened in the post poly interview that led me to believe that I had successful exams with reliable opinion.

Tony

posted 01-10-2003 05:26 PM            

Let's see what everyone else thinks and I will respond more next week. Good one.

Jack

posted 01-10-2003 11:21 PM            

Ed Gelb

posted 01-11-2003 12:51 AM         

I concur with Ed Gelb on this one in regards to testing the victim and the potential 'pitfalls' of the victim recalling the traumatic events. Personally,I wouldn't have tested the victim unless there was some significant reasoning (which maybe you haven't elaborated on) considering the 'suspect' was found deceptive. However, if a test was necessitated, my approach would have been more in line with a "confirmatory test." To me there are two approaches to this, one as described by Ed, such as "DY lie in your statement" kinda of questions; or take specific events from her statement and allow a 'yes' answer. (I recall Shirly Sturm making that suggestion in a Colorado Association seminar)

In speculation as to why the victim failed, I'm wondering if she 'willingly' had sex with both men earlier that night, either as a group- or individually.(I found it interesting the suspect had to go outside to smoke a cigarette- alot of us smokers have do that after sex; or she 'willingly' let him in at 5am.)

In regards to the suspect test,I more than likely would have used the Air Force MGQT.

However before commenting on potential relevant questions, I was curious about some of the case facts:

Question: Any medical evaluation to support sexual assault (vaginal tearing/ bruising) or indications of bruising to victims throat,neck, or arms etc.

Question: Did male friend and suspect both enter at 1am and 2:30am ? Do we know whether or not she had consensual sex with her male friend that night? and is that the reason why the suspect went outto the car to wait?

You wrote
Suspect said:"he stayed in the car and the other goes inside to retrieve a jacket that had been left there earlier. At about 2:30A.M. Both males again stop by and both go inside. After about five minutes the suspect male states he goes outside to wait in the car and have a cigarette.”

Victim said "While babysitting for her sister friend stops by as well as the alleged suspect at about 1:00 A.M. they talk for a while then the two males leave”

Comment: This obviously is a significant divergence. (Suspect male states: At bout5:00
A.M. the 22 year old suspect male drives alone to the apartment and according to him he knocks on the apartment door and is let in.)(Alleged Victim states: At about 5:00 A.M. the victim states she awoke with someone standing over her with his hand on her throat while sleeping on a living room sofa.)

Question: Do we know who this car belongs to? (Suspect states: As he leaves he notes that another car had pulled into the parking lot.) Is it the sister ? or another‘boyfriend’ or unknown?

Question: Does the suspect admit to taking the underwear? possibly as a‘trophy’ ? (Victim states: He then directs her to remove her underpants that he took and then directs her to the bathroom where he tells her to douche.)

Question: Did victim give reasoning for her delay in notifying police? and what was her demeanor when her sister arrived home? (About fifteen minutes later the local police department received a call from the alleged victims sister stating that the sister was raped.)

As potential relevant questions for the suspect:

#2] Regarding XYZ, Do you intend to answer truthfully each question? (Sacrifice Relevant)

#4] Did you wakeup (victim) on the sofa that night with your hand on her neck (throat)? I chose this because suspect said he knocked and she let him in, it also lends to force being used. Probably would have used the word 'neck' as it applies to front or back, as 'throat'applies to the front only, just in case the victim fudged a little.

#6] Did you make (victim) have sex acts (or sexual intercourse) with you that night? I chose the word 'make' over 'force' because I simply don't like using the word 'force'.

#8] Did you take the (victim’s)underpants with you that night for any reason? Admittedly I don't like this question,and would be of interest only if he denied it, and was trying to cover up physical evidence or keep a 'trophy'. A different question more than likely would have to be considered (it's just late and my brain is deteriotating and can't think of a good question)

#10] Before having sex with (victim) that night, Did you threaten to hurt her for any reason?

I chose these four relevant questions as they tend to 'lead' him through his behavior while committing the sexual assault.

Tony, I would interested reading the questions- both relevant and comparative- you chose for both the suspect and victim; Do you intend to post them here? The interesting debate with other examiners could be more of question formulation and their reasoning why.

Bob

posted 01-11-2003 01:11 PM            

Recently (within the last year) our state legislature had introduced along with other legislatures a bill that would have totally prevented anyone from even suggesting a polygraph to any victim of reported sexual assaults.

Our association had found that a woman’s advocate group that stated they were looking out for the victim not to be victimized twice, presented the bill to the legislatures. We could not find out any specific incident(s) within the state that brought forward such a concern. We believe that they had taken on the cause of some other states high profile case involving a bad exam, which they believed could happen here.

The bill passed in the house but failed on arrival in the state senate. Our association had written letters as well as emails to our legislatures noting our concerns over such a restrictive bill, yet we also recognized the positive aspect of ferreting out the bad reporter, noting that a supposed victim crying wolf hurts the process of all truthful reporting and potential victims of sexual assault.

If and when in the future a bill is passed preventing the examination of alleged victims “Statement Verification” would not be a bad way to go. Thanks…….

In regards to the replies on my sexual assault case I just want to make sure that forum members understand what I hoped to accomplish beyond presenting some new areas of discussion. I hope to take something away from everyone’s ideas that will allow me to be a better examiner. I accept the shortcomings of being an new examiner (three years), but continue to learn from the veterans. Hopefully we can all present some unusual cases and help each other by bringing the tools out of the shed, to work the garden. Its good exercise!

As with Bob’s post I formulated my Relative Questions to the alleged victim in such a way I thought would validate her being truthful as to what she had stated to law enforcement verbally and in writing staying away from direct challenge questions with exception to only asking questions concerning specific case fact.

I must admit that at the end I became dumbfounded as to why both were deceptive and I am still not comfortable within absolute certainty why the results are the way they are.’

I’ll explain more later…just want to give the members a chance to post.

posted 01-11-2003 02:24 PM            

I don’t know about anyone else but from the beginning I found the alleged actions of the suspect outside the norm (understanding that it is not always the case of course) of those who usually carry out such an act of forcible rape (back to the scene after twice there, parking in the public area, knowledge that the victim was babysitting and that the sister could come home at any time, no history of any physical crime, no history of any domestic/sexual relationship issues, no invocation of Miranda, submission to polygraph while in custody, no denial of sexual contact nor knowledge that the alleged victim was underage.
I also found her rendition of what had occurred suspect to a point of characterizing her statements ie: unlocked door, hand on throat, verbal threats, Manner of Sexual Intercourse, seizure of underwear, douching, as how do I make this believable, dramatic filler……
Was this wrong of me to think?
I believe that by Bob asking probative questions he is trying to include/exclude the same problematic concerns that were foremost in my mind not so much for the exam portion but in preparation for the post exam interview/interrogation.
Bob, were not to far off in our relative questions….

Any comment or thoughts…..

Tony

posted 01-11-2003 07:48 PM            

His demeanor was open and receptive, but he still varied back to his concern, his relationship with his child. He denied any force physical or implied and stated that the sexual contact was consensual without any reserve. He stated that he did not take any underwear nor did he make the alleged victim douche. He said he knew nothing of the allegation until his friend who heard of the report to police called him later and he immediately came back to the area to make himself available.

According to him he was just out with his friend and they had stopped at the alleged victims sister’s apartment. He was told that she was easy so he had decided to stop by and visit her before returning home. He told me that he parked in the front public parking area and that he had knocked on the door and within a couple of minutes she had come to the door and allowed him in. Once inside they had started kissing and she had directed him to the bedroom where they had sex. He stated that after the sexual encounter while talking at the kitchen table about their children she disclosed that she was seventeen years old. At this point he told her that he had to leave and she went to the bathroom.

As he was leaving the parking lot a car pulled in as he was pulling out.

Considering that the main concerns being sex, consent and force the following relative questions were asked.

Did S_____have sex with you of her own free will?

Did you force S____to have sex with you?

Did you threaten to hurt S_____if she did not have sex with you?

Standard Lie Control Questions were used that examinee properly responded to.

Three charts utilizing a Modified Zone of Comparison Exam were obtained as well as a Stim Test. Charts were of good quality with no noted examinee/examiner related anomalies or detractions.

Utilizing a three-point scale examinee scored a –7 emphasis on GSR and Pneumo channels. Spot score fail on Zone 1 and Zone 3

Post examination Interrogation revealed no disclosure to force or lack of consent. Offered various themes related to alcohol consumption, victim confusion etc….. Story remained consistent throughout.

Did offer that he felt that his friend who is married was also engaged in an ongoing sexual relationship with the alleged victim but did not want him to get in trouble with his wife.

Examiner and Investigating Officer both felt separate of the polygraph that verbal and non-verbal suggested alleged suspect being truthful.

Alleged Victim promptly showed up for exam and during pre-test review of case facts victim sometimes left out specifics ie. “he put his hand over my mouth and throat and said…..” “They came by only once before the sexual assault….” Nothing about a jacket. “He looked inside the bathroom cupboards looking for a douche stating while he was looking that he was going to make her douche. Stated that only when they were in the bedroom and he was behind her that she said that she was only seventeen years old.

No emotional attachment to the sexual assault while reviewing the case facts. Never any thing said of the alleged suspect lying. Emphasized by the examiner that we were going to try to validate the truthful.

Following relative questions were asked of the alleged victim.

Did you lie about T____forcing you to have sexual intercourse with him?

Did you lie about T____ forcing you to douche after the sexual intercourse?

Have you lied about T_____’s actions for any reason?

Standard Lie Control Questions were used that the examinee properly responded to.

Three charts utilizing a Modified Zone of Comparison Exam were obtained as well as a Stim Test. Charts were of good quality with no noted examinee/examiner related anomalies or detractions.

Utilizing a three-point scale examinee scored a –11 emphasis on Pneumo and Cardio channels. Spot score fail on Zone 3

During the posttest interview/interrogation alleged victim stated that her sister is pretty stringent with the rules regarding her babysitting. Stated that her sister would not approve of her having people over during the early morning hours. Admittedly she told us that she is under constant family pressure as she is a young mother with a child and her family is pretty hard on her about her situation. (Only time she became visibly emotional throughout interview).

Stated that when the alleged suspect left her sister came in and saw her in the bathroom. The sister was visibly concerned as she had seen the alleged suspect leave and stated “What Happened”. At this point she disclosed to her sister what she eventually reports to law enforcement as a forcible rape.

Utilized interview themes of other peoples expectations being set too high ……so forth and so forth, not receptive, weak to no denials when confronted with soft allegations of false reporting. Easily Accepts shortcomings with the investigation regarding lack of evidence, witnesses, credibility etc.

Well guys this was it…hope I did not let anything out. Let me know what you think. Be kind…….J

Tony

My Opinion:

I believe that the alleged suspect concerns (Psychological Set) not fully associated with the allegation, were so over bearing, that his reactions were not representative of the issue at hand, forcible sexual intercourse. Others that had read the case prior to the polygraph had formulated an opinion that they were both lying.

Sorry to say, I feel the same and that the truth lies somewhere in between.

I hope that this was a good discussion to bring forward; it helps me just to get it out to all of you. I hope that we can feel comfortable with each other to a point that with some I can pass along some case fact and with your help formulate some good questions.

I’m pretty much mostly an MZOC man….Have tried the IZOC..liked it….going to try and use it more often. Maybe some discussion on it would be good.

posted 01-13-2003 09:57 AM         

Since I was taught something slightly different on MZOC, I thought I would comment on that. I was taught RQ 5 was a direct relevant, and RQ 7 was the same as RQ 5 with something added, and RQ 10 was a secondary relevant. As an example:

RQ 5: Did you force S___to have sexual intercourse with you?
RQ7: Did you force S___to have sexual intercourse with you by verbally threatening her?
RQ 10: Did you have your hand around S______ ‘s neck that night?

Regarding the suspect, I don’t think I would have used ‘standard lie’ comparatives, but comparatives similar in nature separated by time or place. Such as: Before the age of 18, DYR doing anything you are sexually ashamed of? Or While married to ____, Did you ever make your wife have sex when she didn’t want to? I would have to wonder if a ‘standard lie comparative’ would be competative enough to capture the psyc set of someone falsely accused of ‘rape.’

Regarding the victim, and since we’re asking ‘Did she lie about----‘, like you, I would have used ‘lie comparatives’ dealing with important documents/job applications/ etc. Tony, I probably would not have asked the “all incompasing kind of question” ‘Have you lied about T___actions...” Suppose S___let T_____into the partment like he said, and/ or he didn’t have his hands on her throat, but yet he verablly threatened her to make her have sex. Also, I’ve found many times victims truely don’t remember ‘exact’ details during a traumatic event, and have a tendancy to ‘add’ something in order to ‘make it fit’ in their mind and therefore ‘have some mental doubt’. Maybe this is some reasoning why S______was ‘hitting’ on your third spot.

Curious to read other examiner’s comments and yours on the above.

posted 01-13-2003 01:33 PM            

As for "S" I would probably do what Ed suggests. Have her write a statement and confirm it with the test. If I had a "strong" suspicion she was lying about the assault then I might put it back on her and ask if she was lying rather than if she was telling the truth.

Jack

posted 01-15-2003 07:51 PM            

Admittedly I am a young examiner learning every day and have found all of your suggestions beneficial to my continuing learning interest in the polygraph field.

This was my first sexual assault case where I was able to polygraph the suspect and victim. In the future If given the same opportunity I will probably go with a factual statement verification exam for the victim.

In regards to the Lie Control Questions I would still stay with them, as they are more practical to those young people that do not have much of a sexual history to disclose.

Thought there would be more input from other members. I did receive an email from an examiner that was forwarded a copy of the post from the forum. His reply was consistent with those comments already made.

Thanks

Tony

posted 01-16-2003 12:37 AM         

Couldn't help but add two more cents to your comment:

"In regards to the Lie Control Questions, I would still stay with them, as they are more practical to those young people that do not have much of a sexual history to disclose"

I don't disagree with you and Jack that "Standard Lie Controls' can be effective, but as I related earlier in these posts it's just that I'm more prone to use sex controls to sex crimes, just a preference of mine only. (Now, a 'Lie control' which deals with a sexual issue, to me is still a sex issue to sex issue.)

I've done a few sexual history interviews over the years, and one thing I've learned is 'young people' DO have a sexual history- (and sometimes very significant)- even when your saying to yourself 'This 13 year old hasn't been around long enough to know much about sex." Kids are becoming involved in sexual "activity" at 12 and up. --Thanks to our more progressive sexually orientated parents, society, late night Cinimax, sexually orientated songs, advertisements, and the Internet, etc. which bombards them daily. And by the way, I believe the girls are just as forward and active as the guys. (Just interviewed a 22yr Fe, who had 18 different sexual partners before she reached the age of 18, and was teaching her 7 yr daughter how to manually stimulate herself. This 22yr Fe started sexual acts at age 12 after hearing her friends talk about how much fun sex was. She said she was too embarrased and didn't want to look 'stupid' to ask her friends,"And Cosmo's magazine wasn't telling me what I wanted to know" so she went to the library where she got a book at age 12 to learn "just how its done" and hid it from her parents.

Sx Hx interviews has been an real "eye opener"for me even though "I thought I seen it all' after 28 years of criminal investigative law enforcement experience (retired). I only 'wish' I knew then, what I know now-- sexual history is great information for 'lead in' theme development and interrogation of sex crimes (particulary their fantasies- and get detailed, exactly what the mind's eye see's). The most difficult part for the investigator is to 'look at someone' and talk about sex frankly, comfortably, without stumbling for words, without blushing, and without the look of 'shock' or 'amusement' (such as a young person talks about humping their sisters Barbie doll- or cuts a hole in the teddy bear to 'relieve' themselves.--kids do practice before trying things sexually with a person)

When thinking about controls for young people consider sexually orientated games being played ("catch a girl-kiss a girl"; "catch a girl and grind", "truth or dare", 'playing doctor' etc) as well as full range sexual behaviors,-from exploring themselves to sneaking a peek at mother, brother, sister, or exploring the family dog. I mean people 'learn' from somewhere, and that's a potential control area. (If you can get a suspected adolescent child molester to admit 'humping'inanimate objects of any kind or sexual contact of any kind with an animal,I would wager he will admit the molestation too (I've found these acts are 'more embarrasing' to them than the actual crime, and is good for interrogation 'lead in' theme development.) Adults however have to have a disinhibitor, (as examples I drank too much- I took too many drugs, my wife wasn't giving me any,the child was 'coming on' to me, she looks like my wife when we first got married etc)

In your case scenario, T___ was 22yoa (if I remember right) and most probably a rapist (therefore a sex offender- and I quarentee he has a history); S_____was 17, and has a child (quarenteed she has a history- but I wouldn't address it because she's the 'victim'.)

To throw out ideas relating to rape accusations:

Prior to the age of 17, DY ever hold a girl down while simulating sexual intercourse? (DY ever fantasize about making someone have sexual activity with you?) The first quesiton implies force, but even when absolutely willing- our hands are holding on somewhere. Pre-tested as 'You would never hold someone one down so you could 'grind' hump or 'simulate intercourse' on them would you? Because if you did, then your not the kind of person I thought you were. Statistics will show those who do or those who fantasize about it,are more than likely to force women into sexual acts later in life. Your not that kind of person that would hold someone down for your sexual benefit are you? or the kind of person that fantasizes about it are you?)

As a side note -- I've heard "catch a girl & grind" more than once (primarily from adolescents coming from urban inner city) and means the adolescent-teenage male chases the girl and 'pins' her to the ground and'grinds'(simulated intercourse)--clearly'learning' rape-like behavior,---by the way, was commonly played on the 'school play ground' during recess)

posted 01-16-2003 07:18 AM            

Did either of these people make any admissions during post test or did I miss that?

Jack

posted 01-18-2003 01:18 AM         

Regarding your original post, I too was surprised by the lack of activity on this message board, but I'll admit that I contributed to it by going into "lurk" mode. Like Bob, I also lurk on the anti site, and it amazes me how much more active it is.

posted 01-18-2003 11:33 AM            

I just wanted to let you all know that I originally sent the notice about the private forum to over 200 of the examiners I have in my database.

I am more than willing to take any suggestions to increase the input and activity here. I would very much like to attend any state or national seminars to talk about ways that the Polygraph Place can assist the industry as well as get more signups to helps us support the site.

Truth is though, its very costly to attend seminars. If any of you are in positions to help with covering some costs of travel and hotel stays at your seminars, I'd be more than willing to give my time to answer questions on a panel regarding online issues.

There are many things that I could provide to the polygraph community from a technical standpoint. Right now, the APA seminar is the only opportunity to do things on a National Basis. I could actually build an online portal that could bring examiners together from across the nation and world daily rather than annually.

The reason I haven't done it yet is two-fold. One. Money. But even more importantly, whenever we have inquired as to who will give their time to help us in the knowledge areas (we are NOT examiners, we're techies), the response is dismal. It seems that 20% of the examiners carry the burden of the other 80% in regards to wanting to be a community and improve the industry.

So If you have ideas for how I can help change that, I'm all ears.

Those are my thoughts as an outsider.

posted 01-18-2003 08:26 PM         

As a suggestion you might try contacting Vickie Murphy (Vickie@polygraph.org), she is the Secretary for the American Polygraph Association.

I know Vickie has done a lot of work towards the establishment/ maintaining ofthe APA Home web page; as well as instrumental in ensuring an 'on line' chat area for examiners to converse. This feature is 'nice', but unfortunately I've never been 'on-line' at the same time anyone else was to converse with.

Possibly you can discuss with Vickie the feasibility of putting a link between the APA home page and the Polygraph Place Home page, which may generate more examiners viewing your site. The more examiners use and post messages on this site to their benefit, the more they will come to the realization of its value and may generate additional revenue (regretably money will always be an tough issue to sell).

posted 01-22-2003 11:15 AM            

I do talk about this site on a regular basis to anyone who wants to listen. Any open exchange of ideas or opinions is always welcome. Also it seems as though someone here always has info on the lastest happenings around the profession. More examiners need to keep up.

If I can help spread the word at the seminar in a formal way let me know. I will, as always talk about it informally in any regard.

Jack